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Welcome, my name is Mark Smallwood and joining me today is Maggie Jon.

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Some say Belgium's greatest exports are chocolate,

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beer and waffles,

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but I'd argue that Maggie is right up there,

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adding a touch of Belgian spice to the coaching world.

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Known for her candid humour and her vocabulary that could make even a Belgian

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sailor blush,

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Maggie brings a fearless down-to-earth style to her work that's as refreshing as a

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cold Trappist ale.

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She's in fine company with other famous Belgians like action-ledend Jean-Claude Van Damme,

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surrealist artiste René Magri and,

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of course,

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the ever-elegant Audrey Hepburn.

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Just as Van Damme,

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throws punches and Magritte twists minds,

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Maggie brings a unique blend of deep inside humour and a bit of sass to help people

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get their sheet together.

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And yes, she'll sort you out while keeping you laughing, thinking and occasionally blushing.

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So grab yourself a cup of tea or a Belgian beer if you're feeling bold and get

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ready for a lively chat with Maggie John where coaching meets comedy and insights

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come with a side of cheeky wisdom.

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Maggie, thank you for joining us today.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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As I promised you, I was going to ask you some searching questions.

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I know the answers will be of great interest to everybody,

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particularly anyone who has a form of neurodiversity.

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And we've discussed we both do enjoy the benefit of neurodiversity.

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Exactly.

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So if I may, I'll begin.

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Sure.

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Maggie,

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I've got to know you over a few months and it strikes me you've managed to stay

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grounded through a great number of challenges.

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When everything around you seems chaotic, how is it that you center yourself and find focus?

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What practical steps or mindset shifts help you avoid being pulled under?

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Right.

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And well, there are three main things that I do, really.

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First of all, I need to talk to people.

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That's kind of like how I deal with stress.

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So I just talk to my friends,

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my partner,

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and that really helps me to calm down and also to see things from different perspectives,

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because when I'm like overwhelmed,

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I kind of I just lose it,

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you know,

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like everything is just everything is shitty or dramatic or whatever,

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you know.

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So when it helps to calm my tits, let's say, to put it eloquently.

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That's one thing.

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Another thing is to move.

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I have a lot of nervous energy in my system.

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And so...

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I generally lose a lot.

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That's just the way it is.

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But especially when lots of things are happening all at the same time,

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I really need to stick to my workout routine.

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And if there's like something that happens acutely,

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then I need to go for a walk just to get that energy out.

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And it always helps.

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It always helps me to calm down, to again, just see things more rationally, let's say.

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um another thing i do is i tend to write to myself so um i vomit things out on

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paper um just anything that really bothers me or something that is really um you

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know overwhelming me and then i also talk to myself in a in a nice way like hey you

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got this you know like affirmations um

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And just taking that moment to getting a view on everything that is going on and

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then also to be nice to yourself is quite useful.

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Because I think for a lot of us,

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neurodivergence especially,

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it is easy to go into the this is shit,

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so I must be shit,

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so the world is shit,

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so everything is shit kind of mindset,

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right?

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And so this kind of stops that process.

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So those would be the most important ones, I would say.

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That's really useful.

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May I dive into one or two of those?

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Yes, of course.

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I absolutely agree with you 100% about exercise.

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It burns off excess energy.

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It's great for physical health and mental resilience.

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Talking to others, I would always say it depends on the quality of their opinion.

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Yeah.

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But I feel you understand what we might all mean by that.

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Right.

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I think the last one is around positive affirmation with your own voice.

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Right.

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Everybody in some way or another gets marked by their parents.

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It could be a gentle smudge or in some cases a much more dramatic traumatic.

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How would you recommend someone who perhaps has a very loud negative voice and a

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very quiet,

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positive self-affirmation voice,

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how would you help them in your professional capacity to turn up the volume on the

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positive and turn down the volume on the negative?

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Right.

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Well, honestly, all of this is just practice.

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It's like, you know, training a muscle.

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And so what I did for years was CBT, so commutative behavioral therapy.

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And that really works on your thoughts and your mindset.

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And just you reprogram your brain, right?

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Because our brain tends to constantly go to the negative.

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Not for everybody, but let's say for most people, that's quite something that happens.

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So what I did in my journey was I would focus on the positives every day.

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For I think a year I did this exercise.

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So I would think about things that I'm grateful for,

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what I like about myself,

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you know,

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things that I thought I did well,

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you know,

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and that was really just five or 10 minutes that I took out of my day on my way to work.

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And what that does is in the beginning, you feel like a, like a wife.

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See, like you're just fooling yourself.

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Like, what the fuck am I doing?

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Right.

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But it really works.

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It really works.

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Like, because eventually you're like, you know, actually, yes, I like this about me.

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And I am grateful for that.

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And I think my life is really not so shit.

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Um,

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it also really helps to look at what is going on in your life and so what happened

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in the past for example lots of people struggle with confidence right and they

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think but I can't do anything and usually that's like a demon I call them in the

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shape of I can't do anything right I always fuck up I am a failure you know those

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kind of things but

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It's interesting how we focus on those things and then we don't focus on everything

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that went right,

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everything that we managed to pull off.

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And that can be a lot, you know, that can be a beautiful relationship that you have.

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It could be a business that you built from scratch.

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It could be,

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I don't know,

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graduating,

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graduating in and of itself,

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especially for neurodivergent is like quite the feat.

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And so, again, just focus on all those positives and keep them right here.

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But it takes practice.

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It's not something that you just, you know, flip on.

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You really do have to work to change your mindset and to change how you feel about yourself.

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I feel that's a really useful tip.

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Yeah.

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So many things in life are achieved through consistently showing up.

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Exactly.

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And it's rare that we think about consistently showing up for ourselves.

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So that's a really good example.

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Thank you.

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Okay.

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So as a professional ADHD coach,

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you will have a unique perspective on the overlap between neurodiversity and high performance.

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are you able to share some of the unexpected ways in which ADHD has empowered you

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both personally and perhaps professionally?

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Yeah, for sure.

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Um,

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There are so many things, to be honest.

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So I'll try not to give you a list of like 10.

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But one thing that I absolutely love about my kind of brain is that I can be creative.

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And I think in a way that you don't often see...

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So our brain works in a different way, right?

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So generally,

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for neurotypicals,

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they tend to flip between the two different networks that we have running inside

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our brains.

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So you have the default mode network, which is your brain kind of being idle.

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It's idling, right?

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So it's just ruminating, it's thinking, it's, you know, and that's where creativity often comes up.

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And then you have the task positive network.

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And that is generally for neurotypicals,

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the network that actually pops up in the brain that starts being active and that

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actually focuses on the task at hand.

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So it quiets everything else.

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Yeah.

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And then you actually focus on the task in front of you.

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But the problem,

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or it's not necessarily a problem,

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it can be good and bad for people with ADHD is that we have both of those networks

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on at the same time.

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So that means that you might get emotional while trying to perform a task.

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But it also means that you have a lot of like other things going on inside your

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brain while you are focusing on one task.

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And that allows you to be more creative.

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Which is great.

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And it has helped me a million times.

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My partner actually thinks that it's a beautiful thing that my role just works in

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such a different way that I come up with the weirdest solutions,

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but they work perfectly.

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So that was beautiful.

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You obviously have the hyper focus as well.

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So it's not that people with ADHD can't focus, we can focus.

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And sometimes we go overboard with our focus, but

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We can only kind of do that for things that are interesting to us or that are super urgent,

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of course,

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or something that is new.

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You know, our brain needs to have like shiny things to focus on.

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So those are two very important ones.

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Then also one that is very useful in my job is that because it's so difficult for

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us to filter out sensory stimuli,

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We see and feel and smell and whatever, everything.

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And so that means that nothing is filtered or not too many things are filtered out.

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Because of that, we actually can connect the dots.

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much better because we just have all of that information.

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And so I feel like our intuition or at least my intuition is pretty spot on.

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Like I notice things that our people don't see, for example.

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And that's quite useful when you're working with people or,

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you know,

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you're trying to get a business up and running,

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for example.

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So, yeah, those are a few things.

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That's really interesting to me.

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So as you were talking, obviously also having ADHD, my brain goes all over the shop.

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I think the way I've described it to other people is,

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you know,

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you might see me sitting there like a sloth,

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utterly uninterested.

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But if the building catches fire and a car crashes outside and some broken glass

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falls in,

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I'm suddenly super active and do it before anyone else has realized.

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Right.

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They've obviously said, how is it you see that and how is it you see this?

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I feel the way you just described it, you capture all the information.

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So I find people perhaps who don't have ADHD or another form of neurodiversity tend

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to focus on the words that are spoken more than all of the signals you're getting.

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And the last person you really want to lie to is someone who's neurodiverse because

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they go,

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well,

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that's interesting.

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I know that's not true.

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And I found in my professional career, you know, I've worked with some people who are...

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would perhaps be said to have some narcissistic tendencies or a little sociopathic

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right and the look of fear you see in their eyes when they know you've seen them

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yes uh is how i probably began to realize something's a bit different about the way

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i process information so um yeah that's that's that's really insightful um

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Something else I just wanted to touch on.

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You know, you hear about ADHD.

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It's a trend at the moment, which obviously those of us who have it find quite entertaining.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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I feel it's probably the under-recognized

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for most of our modern history.

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So it's not that I think suddenly more and more people are being diagnosed because it's trendy.

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I kind of look at it as,

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well,

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perhaps now it's accurately defining the percentage of the global population that

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actually has this.

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But I see it as a bit of a superpower.

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Right.

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Although at school, it was obviously not presented that way.

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No.

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In any way, shape, or form.

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No.

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So... Oing, boing.

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Yeah, or any... And I know you will have also done things you find mind-numbing, so... Yes.

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Yes.

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At that point, people with ADHD can become quite disruptive.

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I've heard.

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I wouldn't know, but yes.

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No, yes.

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All right.

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Well,

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look,

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I know because we've spoken before and you're a prolific writer and podcaster on

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your Substack app,

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and I will put a link to that on the webcast as it goes out.

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Yep.

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Looking back on the tougher times you've experienced in your life,

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is there a specific challenge that perhaps whilst painful,

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turned out with the benefit of hindsight to be transformative?

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And how did that experience shape who Maggie is today?

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Well, I have a few.

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And usually it's connected to the countries that I moved to.

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So let's say the start of my personal journey really started when I moved to Australia.

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So the idea was to go there for six months and I ended up staying for four years,

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which is,

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you know,

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well,

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it happens.

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And the thing is that I came from a very strict Catholic family with lots of negativity,

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lots of this feeling that the world is against you,

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let's say.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so, and of course, also just feeling anxious.

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Anxiety and depression runs in the family, let's say.

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And so I came from that environment.

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And then I just kind of plumped myself into Australia.

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And it feels like that was obviously a shock to the system too.

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Because also it's not like I am...

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super extroverted.

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Now in Uruguay,

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since I came here,

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it seems like I've gotten a bit more extroverted,

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but generally,

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especially in the past,

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I wasn't.

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It was more like, oh, shit, there's a group of people.

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Should I run or...

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Should I try and make an effort?

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Right.

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And so I got there and it was like I was in the backpacker scene, obviously.

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And so I'm not the kind of person to drink myself into oblivion or to smoke myself into oblivion.

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I don't give a fuck about any of those things.

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And I never have.

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And so I felt like an outsider, even as a traveler in that way.

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And so that was quite tough to deal with and to deal with feeling lonely,

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of course,

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and feeling like I'm not in control.

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And as a recovering control freak, that was, again, a disrupt to the system.

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So everything changed all the time and random shit happened and lots of shitty things happened as well.

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For example,

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I ended up in a horrible toxic relationship in which I was completely controlled by

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this person and manipulated.

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And...

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I needed to fight my way out of that situation to understand how strong I actually

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am and to really look at everything that I'd done.

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Because again,

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remember where I came from and then all of a sudden I just kind of,

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I go,

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fuck this and then we're on to Australia.

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And then I just, I had to adapt constantly.

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And then I had to fight to get out of a shitty relationship and I managed.

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And so that really was, I think,

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Preferably the start of my growth journey.

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That's really where I started going, hmm, you know what?

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Maybe I am worth it.

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Maybe I can fight.

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Maybe I can do a bunch of things that I never thought I could.

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Because if I can grow that, I do anything pretty much, right?

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And so I think that was a big one.

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Totally.

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Okay.

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Well, thank you for sharing that.

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I have no doubt it was deeply unpleasant at the time.

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But as we both know, resilience isn't developed by being ratch in cotton wool.

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Resilience is developed through overcoming adversity.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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You said something that got me thinking in there.

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And I wondered if there's a link because you talked about you've never really cared

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about alcohol or smoking.

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And I would be interested at a further point,

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unless you have data now,

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what the linkage is between addiction and the barrier perhaps that neurodiversity

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puts in the way of addiction.

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Because I have also been able to pick up and put down anything without being addicted to it.

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And I'm wondering if that's just us two or whether that's common.

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That would be interesting to find out more about, I think.

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Well, it's not common, actually, but I feel like most people have some kind of addiction.

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And honestly, in a way, maybe that's kind of just part of being human.

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I don't know, because life can be tough.

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And so I think most of us will try to find something that suits us,

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that like,

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I don't know,

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that just makes life a little bit less sharp.

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So there is,

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unfortunately,

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quite a positive correlation between neurodiversity in general,

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but especially ADHD and addiction as well.

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But again, addiction can take many forms.

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It can be addicted to relationships, to sex, to sugar, to caffeine, to control.

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I mean, that's how I see it.

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I feel like...

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you can be addicted in a way to control as well.

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And that was definitely one of mine.

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So... I understand.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Thank you for that.

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No worries.

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We're both coaches, but we coach in different areas.

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As a coach, I find you're constantly giving energy to support others.

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How do you balance that while also ensuring you make time for yourself, stay healthy, stay focused?

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Do you have some advice perhaps for others who want to support people,

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but I'm finding it perhaps quite draining?

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Yes, it absolutely can be quite draining.

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What I do is I, first of all, make sure that the physical side of things is under control.

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So as you mentioned, you know, making sure that you are healthy.

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So you sleep enough,

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that's a big one,

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because no sleep or not enough sleep really fucks with our brain in every possible way.

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Making sure that actually meet people enough because it's incredibly important for

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our mental and physical health to actually socialize as well and not just via text.

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Actually meeting people face-to-face or via camera, not?

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That, having a healthy diet, exercising, all those kind of things.

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Again, for me...

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I need to restore that energy.

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So it feels like I give out a lot of energy to other people, right?

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And so I've noticed recently that when I talk to my friends,

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I am craving that energy back in some kind of way.

(00:22:14):
And so I just kind of pull things out and I just, yeah, I kind of vomit all over my words and my life.

(00:22:25):
Yeah, wow.

(00:22:25):
Fabulous.

(00:22:26):
Fabulous men.

(00:22:30):
Fabulous men's image there, Maggie.

(00:22:31):
Thank you.

(00:22:32):
Yeah.

(00:22:35):
Let's go on you for a while.

(00:22:36):
It's okay.

(00:22:40):
You know, so obviously I listen to them too.

(00:22:43):
I'm not a shitty friend, right?

(00:22:44):
But I do feel that in the beginning when I meet them, I just kind of get things out and then they listen.

(00:22:51):
Right, exactly.

(00:22:52):
And that kind of restores that energy as well.

(00:22:54):
Yeah.

(00:22:56):
So in that way,

(00:22:57):
I think it's kind of like I feel like I'm caring about people and I'm caring for

(00:23:02):
people a lot.

(00:23:02):
And then I feel like I need to be cared for in return.

(00:23:07):
And that kind of restores that balance, if that makes any sense.

(00:23:12):
Also, I just do things like, you know, watching a stupid TV show.

(00:23:17):
You know, something that really you don't have to think about.

(00:23:20):
You can just, again, take instead of give all the time.

(00:23:26):
And it's usually something funny.

(00:23:28):
So, you know, humor really helps me a lot as well.

(00:23:31):
And that's,

(00:23:31):
I think,

(00:23:32):
also why I love writing in a funny way,

(00:23:35):
you know,

(00:23:37):
posting stupid notes on some stuff.

(00:23:40):
It gives me energy.

(00:23:41):
You know, it restores that balance again.

(00:23:44):
I understand.

(00:23:45):
I am...

(00:23:47):
I dare say you've also experienced this.

(00:23:50):
There are some people where you spend time with them and you walk away going, oh, my God, shoot me.

(00:23:58):
You know, they've always sunk their fangs into your neck and drawing your essence out.

(00:24:03):
Yeah, emotionally.

(00:24:05):
And there are others who you just feel recharged.

(00:24:09):
Absolutely.

(00:24:09):
I think if I was honest with anyone, I would say I find I recharge better in isolation.

(00:24:16):
Right.

(00:24:17):
And,

(00:24:17):
you know,

(00:24:18):
the things I would particularly do for me,

(00:24:21):
I'm not great for sitting in a room and meditating.

(00:24:24):
I kind of meditate by riding a motorbike and having to concentrate on the here and now.

(00:24:29):
You know, my other hobbies that require me to have high attention to fine detail.

(00:24:35):
This means everything else gets tuned out.

(00:24:37):
And that in itself is quite relaxing.

(00:24:40):
Right.

(00:24:41):
Do you have that in some way or is it different for you?

(00:24:46):
Um, you mean that I have things like active meditation in that sense?

(00:24:51):
Yeah, that's a really good way of describing it.

(00:24:54):
Active meditation, yeah.

(00:24:55):
Right.

(00:24:56):
Yeah, it's 100%.

(00:24:57):
Like I love cooking,

(00:24:58):
for example,

(00:24:59):
and that's like the one moment where I'm just leaving everything behind.

(00:25:04):
Fuck my phone at that point, you know, and I'm just like cutting my vegetables and creating really.

(00:25:11):
Just creating in general, I think is actually quite soothing.

(00:25:13):
Yeah.

(00:25:14):
In a weird way, because you're still giving, but it doesn't feel like it's draining.

(00:25:18):
It's more like... Maybe you're asking for energy when you create.

(00:25:25):
And then I have to think about that one, actually.

(00:25:29):
But yeah, I think something like that.

(00:25:31):
Yeah, definitely that's something I do.

(00:25:34):
That's a really good comment, I think.

(00:25:36):
You know, as you say that... When I find myself in a creative mode...

(00:25:45):
I find myself quite excited while I'm doing it.

(00:25:48):
And like,

(00:25:49):
you know,

(00:25:50):
I don't know what the equivalent is,

(00:25:51):
but I'd almost be going,

(00:25:53):
oh,

(00:25:53):
at the end,

(00:25:53):
like I've done that.

(00:25:54):
I've achieved something.

(00:25:55):
That's a win.

(00:25:57):
And that is quite recharging.

(00:26:01):
Whether it's cooking, whether it's whatever it is, it doesn't matter, does it?

(00:26:05):
It's bringing that,

(00:26:06):
the part of your brain to the table that,

(00:26:09):
you know,

(00:26:10):
usually is suppressed through childhood or certainly education systems.

(00:26:17):
Okay, that's brilliant.

(00:26:19):
So last question, if I may, Maggie.

(00:26:24):
Life's rough patches can frequently teach gratitude in unexpected ways,

(00:26:30):
I guess,

(00:26:30):
depending on how you choose to look at them.

(00:26:33):
Right.

(00:26:33):
What are some things you're grateful for now that maybe you didn't appreciate when

(00:26:39):
you were going through them in life?

(00:26:41):
And how has that gratitude influenced your approach to resilience?

(00:26:47):
Right.

(00:26:48):
Well, to be blatantly honest with you, I wasn't grateful for many things in the past.

(00:26:54):
I was very much of the global goal mindset.

(00:27:01):
I was constantly running.

(00:27:02):
I was running just the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing.

(00:27:08):
And so whenever I was proud of something that I accomplished, there was a little blip and that was it.

(00:27:16):
Or when something beautiful happened, there was a little blip and done.

(00:27:20):
And it was like,

(00:27:20):
yes,

(00:27:21):
but,

(00:27:21):
and then I would go into reasons why it would be still shitty or I still had to do

(00:27:27):
something or,

(00:27:28):
you know,

(00:27:29):
or I could still do better.

(00:27:30):
This was a big one as well, because again, recovering perfectionist as well.

(00:27:35):
And so I wasn't very grateful for many things.

(00:27:38):
And now I'm grateful for so many things, depending, of course, on my mood.

(00:27:44):
Sometimes you just feel crap and then everything is crap.

(00:27:48):
But I'm grateful,

(00:27:50):
especially for the people in my life,

(00:27:52):
because I do believe that we are here for connection.

(00:27:55):
More than anything else.

(00:27:57):
And so that is something that I regularly think about.

(00:28:02):
That I have such beautiful people in my life.

(00:28:06):
And obviously the wankers I booted out.

(00:28:07):
So...

(00:28:12):
I have beautiful people in my life and I'm very grateful for that,

(00:28:16):
but I'm also grateful for my own strength.

(00:28:18):
I'm grateful for what I did in my life, what I managed to pull off.

(00:28:24):
That might be a weird thing to be grateful for, but I am grateful for that and I'm proud of that as well.

(00:28:30):
And I think that is the key to, in a way, to be resilient.

(00:28:35):
I mean, I was resilient in the past.

(00:28:41):
It's just that life is so fucking heavy, right?

(00:28:45):
So I was resilient.

(00:28:46):
I was fighting.

(00:28:47):
I managed somehow.

(00:28:51):
I managed.

(00:28:52):
But life was heavy.

(00:28:53):
There was no light in there.

(00:28:55):
There were no colors in there.

(00:28:58):
And the minute I started working on gratitude and,

(00:29:01):
you know,

(00:29:02):
positivity,

(00:29:04):
all of a sudden the world became something beautiful again.

(00:29:07):
Like I could see colors again, whereas in the past it was black and white in many different ways.

(00:29:13):
Now it's a painting.

(00:29:15):
It's, you know, there are plenty of beautiful colors in there.

(00:29:18):
And so I think it really helps resilience in that you...

(00:29:25):
You don't have to stop because of depression,

(00:29:28):
because of anxiety,

(00:29:29):
because of burnout,

(00:29:31):
because of overwhelm,

(00:29:32):
right?

(00:29:33):
So you can keep going and you can also be happy while you are doing that.

(00:29:39):
And that is not something that I did in the past.

(00:29:41):
I went from burnout to burnout or from depression to depression.

(00:29:44):
And so, yeah, that just honestly sucked balls, really.

(00:29:48):
So I can't recommend it.

(00:29:50):
Yeah.

(00:29:53):
So that's it.

(00:29:54):
Yeah.

(00:29:56):
That's brilliant, Maggie.

(00:29:56):
Thank you for your candor, for your fruity language, for your comfort with sharing personal stories.

(00:30:07):
I know when I first, I think, I can't remember if I read or listened to your first podcast.

(00:30:13):
Yeah.

(00:30:15):
I found it really entertaining.

(00:30:16):
It was entertaining because it spoke to me at a level where I felt that,

(00:30:21):
yeah,

(00:30:22):
she could be describing me in her voice,

(00:30:24):
in her language,

(00:30:25):
but she's certainly describing my experience.

(00:30:28):
And I think you are fearless, which takes some balls to just put it out there.

(00:30:35):
And usually...

(00:30:38):
someone who's fearless has had to push through quite a lot.

(00:30:40):
So that makes you a very interesting person.

(00:30:43):
And I've no doubt that anyone who's lucky enough to be coached by you will see

(00:30:49):
marked improvements with their ability to handle neurodiversity or anything else

(00:30:54):
they're looking for in life.

(00:30:56):
So thank you so much for being my business friend.

(00:31:00):
Thank you.

(00:31:02):
so much for taking the time to come and talk to us all today.

(00:31:06):
And I'd just like to thank you once again for joining us.

(00:31:10):
Thank you so much for everything.

(00:31:13):
Pleasure.